WORLDWIDE Chapter 149 Message Board

Jon · Chapter President

Can anyone add to the case of identifying GENUINE Sun/Moon silver dialed verge watches? Lately I have been asked quite a few questions about these watches by collectors.

It is tough to id. some of these watches by photos or catalogues or on ebay.
knowing the seller or the watches pedigree helps, but seeing "unknown" watches pop up causes concern and values are not at all consistent.

How about a discussion with learned collectors of same?

Bryan · Chapter Member

Agreed.

rpnewman · Chapter Member

I'm glad to help (I tried posting pictures about a month ago but that generated an error loading and gave up). There have been lots of made up pieces coming from Europe but fairly easy to be suspicious. Important to look at the entire piece, movement, case, & dial to determine authenticity. London signed examples went out of favor by about 1700. Provincial markets by 1720. Dutch even later. What specific questions do you have?

Jon · Chapter President

Hi Rich,

Thanks very much for responding to my questions about genuine Sun/moon dialed English watches.

I have been looking for a nice genuine example on a complete watch for many years. Either they were Dutch or not English and many I have examined were fake or appeared so. I am wondering if I should go about it a different way with a list of genuine ones by maker? Many suspicious examples appear as poorly executed, poor quality, fit incorrectly or appear on later watches. And, add to this the problem of most offered on line and/or unreliable auctions, plus not being able to hold watches in one's hand. So, I tread on and on still hunting........

Yes, I also am at a loss as to uploading photos here. I photographed some nice early English watches several weeks ago but struck out trying to download them to this forum after reading instructions on google. No luck so I will again try to tackle the problem after some accounting work is completed.

I appreciate very much any advice or pit falls buying a S/M watch you might give me. Thanks again.

Jon
jonontime@aol.com

rpnewman · Chapter Member

I've become more interested in Dutch pieces the older I get because they often do not command the respect that they deserve from traditional collectors of early watches who, like me, have many references / publications on early English but very few on early Dutch and therefore much harder to understand that market. Anyway, I think many early (pre-1700) Dutch pieces easily rival early London quality but no question that London quality through the 1st quarter and later is on the whole very fine.

Interestingly, English quality (London-signed & provincial) can be all over the board the later the watch - - probably a function of changing buyer demographics & competition (perhaps poorer quality just didn't survive) but in my humble opinion some of the nicest and most interesting watches I see made during the 2nd & 3rd quarter, having interesting dial configurations or faux pendulums or striking/repeat, have Dutch or German origins. The London maker/retailers seem to be just mainly pumping out good quality standard watches during this time.

So, back to early sun & moon London-signed watches, there had to be specialists who produced these ebauches & dials. London signed examples are fine watches but most often signed by smaller retailers/makers. Some also offered other interesting dial configurations, so that's why I suspect specialist retailers, and were relocated Huguenots or makers with connections to the continent such as Fromanteel (one of the earliest who offered sun & moon watches). I don't see, for example, sun & moon signed watches by any of the big watch producers such as Gretton, Tompion, Windmills, etc. There is history here that needs to be flushed out.

Jon · Chapter President

Thanks very much, Rich, for the response and info. Next we have to work on posting photos here. Jon

rpnewman · Chapter Member

Early London-signed example by Fromanteel that dates to circa 1690. Seconds dials are very uncommon at this time; however, not so on sun & moon dials. Ahasuerus (father) and John (eldest son) are most remembered for being the first to make clocks in England in 1658 that utilized a pendulum. I think this watch was made by son, Ahasuerus II (he died in 1703). Its one of the earliest sun & moon examples that I know of.

Notice the narrow fusee. Also that the balance cock foot does not have a border. These are two indicators of an early watch, along with the crested tulip pillars & other design elements. The inner box (inner pair case) is silver. The tortoise shell outer case (actually hawks bill turtle) has silver and gold pique work. The back also had gold and/or silver inlay that was heat-pressed into the shell but unfortunately worn away.

PJR · Chapter Member

Spectacular! Thanks for your persistence in getting these photos up.
Paul

Jon · Chapter President

Rich, Here is an old link of one of my early Dutch watches:

http://nawcc-ch149.com/ch149mb/viewtopic.php?t=27766

rpnewman · Chapter Member

Jon,
Very nice. Especially like the dial. Would it be possible to get a clear shot or two of the side view of the movement? The picture posted is out of focus and I can't see the profile of the pillars or fusee. Secondly, regarding the case mark, you mention the makers' mark on the box is "IH". Can you confirm no coronet or other mark above the "IH" and that there is no pellet between the two initials, etc. I assume there are no other assay marks on the case(s). Is that correct?

Interestingly, Henry Overbury worked in London before going to Rotterdam. His father was also a watchmaker in London and they were affiliated with the Delanders, a really good name. Records are unclear why or when Henry went to Rotterdam but he was last recorded still alive there in 1733.

Rich

Jon · Chapter President

Hi, That is an old photo when I was less experienced with the LW's iPhone.

I will try again but the the trick will be to upload it to 149.

So, I shall try again.

Jon

Jon · Chapter President

Let's give this the old "college" try again

Bryan · Chapter Member

Nice pillars!

rpnewman · Chapter Member

Spectacular pillars and quality movement. I've seen intricate pillars similar to these on Dutch watches well into the 1740's. Faux pendulums were also still in style, or perhaps came back into style about this time in the Netherlands - - clearly a much more expensive watch than an ordinary time-only standard verge and fusee. Calendar also often present and placed in the lower half of the dial like on this watch. Clearly these watches were one of the most expensive that a retailer could offer their wealthy clients.

High quality dial does not have arcaded minutes as often associated with Dutch pieces. Notice the inner index to read the time with just the hour hand. Very nice. Thank goodness for the calendar because otherwise the silver champleve dial could have easily been swapped out for enamel to keep up with changing style.

Assuming no other marks on the case(s) except "IH", the casemaker was likely Jean Hubert who worked in Amsterdam from 1728 to 1761. If you see a crown or other mark above the initials than not Jean Hubert.

Jon · Chapter President

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