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WORLDWIDE Chapter 149 Message Board Forum Index » Pocket Watch Value Line for Collectors » IMPORTANT QUESTION re RARE RAILROADS, REFINISHED Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
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IMPORTANT QUESTION re RARE RAILROADS, REFINISHED
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:17 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 26856
Location: Boston, Ma




How much should one deduct for a poorly refinished porcelain dial from its original matched or original movement?

In other words what should be the discounted price for any WRONG or POORLY refinished dial on a nice movement?

What is the general number and your thoughts on this important question?

Thanks,

Jon

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:12 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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In my experience, more than 50% discount. People who collect the RR's, want it to be correct.

For example, Waltham Santa Fe OF usually goes for $900, the Hunters a little more, The Santa FE RR dial as opposed to the regular dress Santa Fe dial adds about $200 more.

A Santa Fe w/out the right dial barely gets $450.

Similar with the Waltham RR Kings. $450 with the right dial. About $250 without it.

As you all know I am not normally a dial person, When I look for these I do need them to have the correct dial for me to cough up.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:13 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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To Me, a refinished dial is almost as bad as no dial.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:43 pm Reply with quote
JohnL
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50% deduct off the top price,

unless you have the necessary dial already to swap onto a rare watch to make it correct, i'd say 50% would be a starting point...IMO

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:49 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
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Posts: 26856
Location: Boston, Ma




Neil may cough, but I choke or mouth vomit when I see these ridiculous faked up English abortions.

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:59 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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Jon wrote:
Neil may cough, but I choke or mouth vomit when I see these ridiculous faked up English abortions.


I thought we were discussing RR's.?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:15 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
Chapter Officer
Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 3528
Location: Indiana




Are we talking about Bob Bennett's watches here? Are we talking about such examples as Bob's refin dial Burlington Special Hamiltons?

Bob was weird about refinishing dials. He said he wanted things to be perfect but had no answer about refin not being perfect. I think those two consecutively numbered Burlingtons went for about half of what they might have brought with good original dials...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:00 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
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Location: Boston, Ma




Any and all dials but we can also include Bob B's refinished Hamiltons of which there are many.

New collectors need to be made aware of the many switched dials out there, esp Howards, Hamiltons and Illinois but also those AWFUL and horrid Englsh refinihed dials of horror. Folks will get stuck!

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:05 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
Chapter Officer
Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 3528
Location: Indiana




I was at least pleased to see that J&H noted that the dials were refinished.

I got into a little argument with a guy in a social media PW group who thought that an S.LaRose Hamilton dial was a factory dial. I had to get out an S.LaRose box with new fake dials in it and show him pictures of the receipts and the backs of the dials and the box. I am still not sure he believed me...he did but he did not want to admit that he had been screwed.

I kind of came to the conclusion, after doing all that work, that I really didn't give a shit what he believed. Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:06 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
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Location: Boston, Ma




Dials noted but now we have to watch out for redone/FAKE two toning and replaced gypo screws.

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:12 am Reply with quote
Bryan
Chapter Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 3648
Location: OH




OR, said another way, a real SCREWING! Laughing Laughing Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:49 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 26856
Location: Boston, Ma




For unaware future buyers............ Idea

ANd the screwing will last indefinitely as the watches are sold, resold and passed on down the line to folks.

The only way it (the reaming) stops is if there is an original to replace those bad dials.

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:38 pm Reply with quote
Bryan
Chapter Member
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 3648
Location: OH




All of these dials should be burned!

🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:22 pm Reply with quote
StephanG
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Joined: 06 Nov 2008
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Location: Melbourne Australia




It is a great shame the there is no official policy about these things.

Pretending re finishing does not happen will not work.
Calling them out when there is no alternative will not stop the practice.

Finding a way to live with re finishers is, in my opinion the only way to protect everyone involved.

Perhaps if they marked their dials in some way so that people could tell the difference would be a way forward.

Then a refinished dial could be judged for what it is but would not be confused for the real thing.

The ones who do not mark their dials could then be correctly called out as frauds.

Before you say it I know most refinished dials are rubbish BUT chances are they are going to get better at it. We need to find a way to work with these people before we get to a point where it is hard to spot the difference.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:22 am Reply with quote
interstatetime
Chapter Officer
Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 3528
Location: Indiana




I liked it that the Ehrhardt Fergie dials were marked so that even an idiot could tell they were reproduction but I have still had to argue with idiots about their originality. You can't really do anything about stupid. There has to be a line where rules/laws/regulations are concerned.

Let's just take Bob Bennett as an example. Should we really have a policy which regulates what he does/did to his own watches? Should we have a rule/law/regulation that says he must mark his redone dials or keep a note with the watch? In the wristwatch world, there is a whole industry built up around refinishing dials. Are we God and fit to tell watch owners they can't mess with their watches?

I think any attempt to do this would be met with laughter if done by the NAWCC and would never fly if done by anyone.

I believe, to some extent, in laws which regulate behavior for "The Common Good." I don't believe that Dow Chemical should be able to dump benzine in the local water supply. On the other hand laws to make sure some idiot can't buy a watch with a re-done dial at some point in the future seems to me to cross the line. The NAWCC has ethics policies which cover unscrupulous dealers being dishonest about goods they are selling. If you tell me we should do a better job of pointing out and enforcing these ethics policies I could probably agree.

Please make a large donation to the NAWCC police the members and marts fund.

Love and kisses to all...and remember...we are all here at 149 because learning and knowledge are king when making watch buying decisions.

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IMPORTANT QUESTION re RARE RAILROADS, REFINISHED
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