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sucker bait
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:36 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 27977
Location: Boston, Massachusetts




I believe you missed one of my important points. That being said what BoB Bennett did to damaged and worthess dials spending his wifes money for rebulding them was his business BUT HAVING BEEN MADE and THEIR PRESENCE OUT IN THE WATCHWORLD ONLY HINDERS FUTURE GENERATIONS (and some present day collectors) because we all know that many will be sold to FISH and the unaware as ORIGINAL!

By creating fakes future collectors will get screwed--this is a dis-service to the hobby!

As far as the GREAT BOB BENNETT COLL--HIS COLLECTION IS FOREVER TAINTED. Future generations might refer to him as that guy who faked up many of his Hamiltons (and not just the dials)!

Doesn't this affect his reputation as a collector?


Last edited by Jon on Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Jon "the truth" Hanson,
"playing" with watches now for 71 years
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!

American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" POCKET abortions!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:21 am Reply with quote
Bryan
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Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 3855
Location: OH




Members would be wise to practice social distancing, and stay minimum 6 ft away from these stinky, tainted watches!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:56 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 27977
Location: Boston, Massachusetts




toxic dials

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Jon "the truth" Hanson,
"playing" with watches now for 71 years
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!

American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" POCKET abortions!
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Re: sucker bait
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:58 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
Chapter Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 3817
Location: Indiana




Jon wrote:
I believe you missed one of my important points. That being said what BoB Bennett did to damaged and worthess dials spending his wifes money for rebulding them was his business BUT HAVING BEEN MADE and THEIR PRESENCE OUT IN THE WATCHWORLD ONLY HINDERS FUTURE GENERATIONS (and some present day collectors) because we all know that many will be sold to FISH and the unaware as ORIGINAL!

By creating fakes future collectors will get screwed--this is a dis-service to the hobby!



I did not at all miss your point. Your point is well taken and very valid. My point is that making rules/laws/policies to regulate what people do with their own goods is overstepping, un-enforcable and, quite frankly ridiculous to contemplate.

As far as people getting screwed is concerned, none of us can legislate against people with no or not enough knowledge and too much money getting screwed. If I'm wrong tell me how. I do all I can to put the knowledge out there and to help as many people as I can. That's what the NAWCC should be doing. In my opinion we do a better and better job of it.

As far as what Bob or other fixer-uppers have done to confuse the history of American watchmaking is concerned, in my opinion we have enough legitimate evidence to construct a pretty good history and for people who are interested in learning the truth to get to it.


Jon wrote:
As far as the GREAT BOB BENNETT COLL--HIS COLLECTION IS FOREVER TAINTED. Future generations might refer to him as that guy who faked up many of his Hamiltons (and not just the dials)!

Doesn't this affect his reputation as a collector?


I don't give much thought to Bob Bennett's reputation. He was a friend. We had some good times. I tried to talk to him about collections and building collections and he did what he wanted. If I only had friends who were perfect I would not have any friends.

Bob had some legitimately good watches in his collection and some fixer-uppers (being kind). I have worked most of my life to gain the knowledge to be able to know the difference. I guess anybody who can't make that distinction should be pretty careful. Caveat Emptor.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:56 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 27977
Location: Boston, Massachusetts




1. It was a shame that BB did what he did--remaking dials, re-doing gilt damascening, replacing screws with gypo ones, and incorrectly filling in lettering.

2. It was a shame he wouldn't listen to reason.

3. It is a shame we have to address this issue to notice the folks.

4. It is a shame some collectors will get screwed in the future getting stuck buying such KAKA.

5. It might become a shame collectors will have to check with FF, John L, or BDE wasting their time as to the legitimacy of their Hamilton watches.

6. It is a shame if it might affect Hamilton collecting.

Shame, shame, shame........

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Jon "the truth" Hanson,
"playing" with watches now for 71 years
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!

American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" POCKET abortions!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:24 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
Chapter Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 3817
Location: Indiana




Shame indeed. I agree...I fully agree.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:56 pm Reply with quote
Sangamo
Chapter Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 1907




when i first saw one of the 'refinished' dials, immediately observed the "tell"

the 'slick', 'wet', finish, and the rounding of the sinks....
it was like a trademark of this English supplier... almost instantly recognizable.

IIRC, these took a path through the Late Phil Priestly, who was the contact to the English source.

I'd believe Bennett's examples would have had a path through Glen E, to Phil, to England and back...

The English source learned, as later examples still retained the 'wet' finish, but the edges retained some sharpness.... was told they disassembled the dial sections, did their work and epoxied the sections together again.

There's been a couple of US sources, but their quality seemed really bad...

Cote is correct... it seems common in the WW world to spiff up a dial....

I think my preference is to accept a damaged 'scarce' dial over a re-finish... common dials CAN be switched....and yeah that ia a frowned upon practice... guilty.

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Terry Hall
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:26 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
Chapter Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 3817
Location: Indiana




Sangamo wrote:


Cote is correct... it seems common in the WW world to spiff up a dial....

I think my preference is to accept a damaged 'scarce' dial over a re-finish... common dials CAN be switched....and yeah that ia a frowned upon practice... guilty.


Terry,

It is common in the wristwatch world but really frowned upon by serious collectors. There is a woman in Italy who seems to do an almost perfect job of restoring flat porcelain wristwatch dials, such as the dials on early military watches. I have seen one example of her work and it was so perfect as to be virtually undetectable.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:45 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 27977
Location: Boston, Massachusetts




To add to Terry's explanation--

The dial are sandpapers or grinded down with a new coat of sort of plastic or epoxy finish; then they are silk screened to add the co. nams and the lettering, etc. Yes, the DS dial components are re married.

Many problems with the finished product--color is always off, lettering not exact, dial feet slightly off (if removed and replaced), backs of dials incorrect--color and fabric, rounded edges, sloping at DS area, and a weird "PLASTIC" look.

Like Terry and others I'd only want the original, damaged or broken. These refinished and remad dials are a horror show!

Yes, these were redone in GB (I once had the name of the butcher who did this work)--maybe in a drawer some place in the catacombs.

Lastly, this woe=rk was very expensive--could have been up to 200. each back 20-30 yrs ago.

_________________
Jon "the truth" Hanson,
"playing" with watches now for 71 years
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!

American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" POCKET abortions!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:16 am Reply with quote
Bryan
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Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 3855
Location: OH




Plastic dials, plastic brains

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:45 am Reply with quote
pocwatjim
Chapter Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 953
Location: Decatur, TN.




OK, OK, enough of bashing old Bob Bennett.

I met Bob at the National in Houston because he had the National display and had most of his Hamilton up for viewing. I had talked with him on the phone for several years and was glad to meet him in person. Old Bob was a retired Male nurse, in the Air Force, and smoked like a smokestack,yes, unfiltered, and this came back to haunt him in his last 10 years because he was on oxygen and quit traveling.

Over the years he would pull out dials that were damaged or ones where he would remove the DS to go on a B&O or similar and we had many conversations about this and I formed the opinion that, this is what made a old guy happy, so everyone knew it and then he pulled out a 2-Tone that didn't look right, we all just said Bob, everyone will know it's not original and go on....

I put many of lids on plastic boxes for him to make up weird colors that no one had ever seen and he loved it...

He pulled out a balance cock with complete balance dangling from it, to show me and it had the #, X'd out and another stamped on it. I said Bob everyone will know that is not factory and I knew he had an 11 J missing the Balance Bridge and he had been looking for many years for one so Glen or someone made one for him. He said that is the way they did it at the factory,,,,,,, I said sorry but no, they didn't, but he was happy that he finally completed the 4 types of 11J's,,,,

Bob wanted to sell some things as he went downhill and kept trying to sell me Hamilton #23 and he said, I am not going to take a GD penny less that what I paid for it (5K). I found Hamilton #22 and called him and can still hear the +!%$#@&*(,

I really liked Bob and won't condemn him for pursuing his passion,,,, just be careful and educate yourself and if you don't, well,,, those are the best lessons learned ,,,,,




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Jim Haney
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:54 am Reply with quote
interstatetime
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Posts: 3817
Location: Indiana




I will say that Freddy's descriptions for J&H are pretty good...see below. If people buy these watches thinking they are anything but refinished they are truly stupid and can't read to boot.


Lot # 125
Estimate 400.00 - 650.00 USD
Group - Category Jewelry & Watches
Lead Hamilton, Grade 939 (marked), 17J, 18S
Description
Hamilton, Grade 939 (marked), 17J, 18S, 4oz coin silver drum style box hinge HC recase, bow with chain guards, "Hamilton Watch Co, H." marked white enamel DS dial, SW-LS, gold jewel settings, nickel damascene, s#15983.
This fully marked version of the Grade 939 is quite scarce, and this particular example is listed in the Hamilton factory ledger as having been sold to A.N. Anderson of Minneapolis, Minnesota on December 4th, 1917.
The "Hamilton Watch Co., H" marked dial is typically found among watches of earlier vintage that were made for Frank Hammond, who was a railroad watch inspector based in Buffalo, New York, and this dial presumably is not the original to this watch which likely originally had a dial with simple script "Hamilton" signature.
From the well-known Hamilton collection of Robert Bennett of Olivehurst, California.
CONDITION: Mvt: Running, excellent cosmetic mvt condition overall, balance jewel setting is a brass replacement and is below a metal cap with brushed finish that is likely also a replacement as it lacks the polished steel finish typical to this mvt grade, scattered micro-fine scratches to barrel bridge and balance cock; dial with slight unevenness to the seating of its seconds-register indicating re-securing of dial sections and suggesting possibility of this dial's outer chapter and/or seconds-register being replaced having come from another Hamilton dial as a donor, dial with flake at center of seconds-register, few scattered extremely faint hls to center; fine hands; case shows little wear, few very shallow dents to front and rear causing some ripple of reflected light, numerous scattered nicks to rear, excellent engraving detail; tight bow, crown shows light wear; good glass crystal.[/b]

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:01 am Reply with quote
Richard Bird
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Joined: 22 Jul 2012
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Location: Minneapolis, MN




Thank god i read this thread, I for sure won't be buying any of these watches Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:03 am Reply with quote
pocwatjim
Chapter Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 953
Location: Decatur, TN.




John,
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that Fred has gone beyond what most would do to point out the changes that Bob made to his collection.

I suggested to Bob's wife Marie to contact J&H about his collection and when Fred told me she had, I had some conversations with Fred about some of Bob's watches, so that it would not embarrass J&H, and Fred has stepped up in his honest descriptions.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:57 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 27977
Location: Boston, Massachusetts




JH auctions has to do theseover the top descriptiond because of the many returns they have had in the past.

Plastic==make, bake, shake, fake and take! Wink Rolling Eyes Laughing

_________________
Jon "the truth" Hanson,
"playing" with watches now for 71 years
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!

American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" POCKET abortions!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
IMPORTANT QUESTION re RARE RAILROADS, REFINISHED
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