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BP (not British Petroleum)--the latest informercial on......
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:07 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25392
Location: Boston, Ma




the green bored.

I have never read so much BS in all my life regarding the buyers' premium at auctions.

What is the BP? It was created as an inducement to sellers to bring goods to this auction house as the commission fees generally are not in the contract but are disguised or moved over to the buyer. This is how the Auction House gets paid--take to from the the seller or buyer. Most large AH with high overhead use the now accepted BP. (Maybe the added on BP works well for old estates and the elderly--the "no fee" might sound good to some of those unfamiliar with the auction process.)

Ever hear "let the buyer beware? Well, IT IS FACT that AH are hoping newbies, those with poor math skills, and over exuberant buyers will battle for this or that thus raising the ultimate hammer price. Either way the seller's cost is a commission/fee under the ultimate final evaluation.

Sure the NO BP is easy on the bidder--he does't have to think, unless (of course) the actual catalogue prose and condition reports are a mess.

Tagline--once the BP was 5, then 10, then the NY houses started this 25% (less for single expensive lots over, say, 100K.) How soon will it be raised again is anyones' guess?

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:21 am Reply with quote
Neilywatch
Chapter Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 5102




To me it is simple greed.

IF you have a buyers premium in addition to a seller's commission, it is almost impossible to make money on your item.

This to me is why AH are working so hard to gain to gain merchandise, they can no longer normally acquire merchandise because people are shopping around for a place to gain the most out of the sale.

When you get shows like Pawn Stars, Strange Inheritance, American Pickers, and Antique Roadshow all in collusion for the major auction houses - it all becomes one big shell game.

I now prefer to deal with individuals that have some knowledge of what I am looking for - and only buy from auction houses when they have something I cannot get elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 11:31 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25392
Location: Boston, Ma




Pawn Stars is a proven sham and the pickers show isn't believable.
But, the Antiques Roadshow is nothing more than an infomercial for the BIG auction Houses! How many times do we see a price given and we scream TAKE IT, SELL IT!

Quite honestly, some auction houses (like RE brokers) always tout the high price to get the consignment or the listing--many are liars or BS artists.

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:35 pm Reply with quote
StephanG
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Joined: 06 Nov 2008
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Location: Melbourne Australia




Alas this is no different than most other things.

The guy in the middle takes the cream at the expense of both buyer and seller.

That is the biggest advantage of buying on the internet because often you can deal directly with the buyer or seller as the case may be.

It is just another pressure for people to give up on collecting watches when they get reamed once to often. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:45 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
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Posts: 25392
Location: Boston, Ma




What guy in the middle?

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:47 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
Chapter Officer
Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 3214
Location: Indiana




I don't know...I don't like the BP as a buyer or a seller...but it is the way things are. If you don't want to take part you don't have to.

My old man taught me the auction world. He said to look at the goods and write down what you were interested in in one column with what you would pay in a column next to it. He said only fools get sucked into paying more. It is really easy to figure the BP as part of that. I am not going to pay more or less for a watch or anything else than what it is worth to me...what I have written down in that second column. If there is a BP it is all figured in. If the BP makes some fools pay more because they don't figure it in or don't do it correctly I lose the bid...simple as that. It really doesn't change much.

Auction houses need to be profitable. It is all part of the game.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 5:52 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
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Location: Boston, Ma




And, they have a lot of overhead!

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 6:25 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
Chapter Officer
Joined: 03 Dec 2002
Posts: 3214
Location: Indiana




Jon wrote:
And, they have a lot of overhead!


Indeed they do.

Check out this link.

http://www.hodinkee.com/articles/four-heuers-sold-for-a-total-of-dollar461333-over-the-weekend-at-sothebys-and-phillips

I own a gold 1158 Heuer Carrera like the one which sold here. Mine does not have the Ronnie Peterson dedication on the back. I have owned several of the 2446 "Rindt" Heuers.

If you think pocket watch auctions are nuts ...

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:26 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
Chapter Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 5102




Jon wrote:
What guy in the middle?


He means the AH.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 7:29 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
Chapter Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 5102




I question their "overhead".

I'd like to see the principals salaries and bonuses - I am willing to bet they are the largest fraction of the supposed "overhead".

Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2016 9:37 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25392
Location: Boston, Ma




Not in NYC my friend--have you any idea of the rents there?

Can you imagine Sotheby's rent and building operation, plus property taxes?

_________________
Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:34 am Reply with quote
Neilywatch
Chapter Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 5102




I won't try - but they should consider moving across the river if they want to remain competitive.

I know I would definitely attend more often! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:19 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 25392
Location: Boston, Ma




Additional confusion concerning reserves: What folks can't seem to comprehend is this reserve business. If reserves are too high stuff will not sell and if too low all it does (a ploy used by some sellers) is to suck in potential bidders thinking items can be ripped. Listen items are worth what they bring at a given time at any given auction on that specific day. Reserves/estimates have nothing to do with values. Many times they are just a guide or used to speed up the auction process. Auction houses that allow reserves too high are ignorant of either values or energy, raw materials and credibility lost. Some AHs charge for buy backs. Also, reserved auctions aren't auctions, especially if the reserves aerate high or do not reflect the real market. We all saw the result of that last weekend--a waste of everyones time!

Also, special deals to dealers as buyers? What does this mean? In the old days auctioneers as part of the auction house might drop the hammer faster to a regular? IT CERTAINLY BEATS THE CONTINUED MILKING for which one auction house is famous!


Last edited by Jon on Wed May 18, 2016 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:24 am Reply with quote
geno
Chapter Member
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 1583




Jon wrote:
Additional confusion concerning reserves: What folks can't seem to comprehend is this reserve business. If reserves are too high stuff will not sell and if too low all it does (a ploy used by some sellers) is to suck in potential bidders thinking items can be ripped. Listen items are worth what they bring at a given time at any given auction on that specific day. Reserves/estimates have nothing to do with values. Many times they are just a guide or used to speed up the auction process. Auction houses that allow reserves too high are ignorant of either values or energy, raw materials and credibility lost. Some AHs charge for buy backs. Also, reserved auctions aren't auctions, especially if the reserves aerate high or do not reflect the real market. We all saw the result of that last weekend--a waste of everyones time!

Also, special deals to dealers as buyers? What does this mean? In the old days auctioneers as part of the auction house might drop the hammer faster to a regular.
Jon is right on the mark and guess what saves you from the games and high reserves and fake bids and lousy condition reports, YOUR OWN KNOWLEDGE Geno
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 11:59 am Reply with quote
Ben_hutcherson
Chapter Member
Joined: 17 Feb 2010
Posts: 2279
Location: Frankfort, KY




Jon wrote:
Also, special deals to dealers as buyers? What does this mean? In the old days auctioneers as part of the auction house might drop the hammer faster to a regular? IT CERTAINLY BEATS THE CONTINUED MILKING for which one auction house is famous!


The very few times I've bought from Bonhams, it has always seemed as though the hammer dropped for me the same as it did for just about every other lot-and I'm a nobody with a bid coming across the computer screen.

I know you've been on the floor for a lot of their recent sales, Jon. Do you notice any buyer preference?
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BP (not British Petroleum)--the latest informercial on......
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