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WORLDWIDE Chapter 149 Message Board Forum Index » Pocket Watch Discussions » Waltham Model 1860 versus 1862 Goto page 1, 2  Next
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Waltham Model 1860 versus 1862
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:17 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Has anybody heard/ participated in this debate?

I have one fellow collector who has collected Walthams for a long time who has argued - based on Waltham Factory mainspring packages - that the 16KW really should be assigned as the model 1862 rather than the model 1860 - as we all know them - and the 20KW should be the model 1860, rather than the model 1862. The 20KW did come first, didn't they?

I don't know enough to say otherwise, but he has proof that Waltham considered the 16KW as their model 1862, rather than the model 1860.

Early American Collectors - what say you?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:34 pm Reply with quote
Ben_hutcherson
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One person who is actually relatively new to collecting these type watches(but has been around for a while) seemed to take offense in conversation at a regional a little while back about my reference to 1860 and 1862 models at all, claiming they should only be referred to at the KW16 and KW20.

In any case, does anyone have the gray book handy? I don't have mine, but I'd be inclined to go with what it says.

And, for all intents and purposes, 1860 for the 20s and 1862 for the 16 are so firmly implanted in early Waltham lexicon that I'd not be one to "rock the boat." At least when I'm conversing with other collectors, they know what I'm talking about if I refer to a 60 or 62.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:48 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Based on your comment, you would be agreeing with the above collector, then.

How then did the designation get reversed to where the 16KW became the 1860 and the 20 KW became the 1862?

As far using the year designation, I would dare say that since Waltham came up with this system of naming their models after the year of introduction, IF they had come up with this nomenclature in the beginning, I'm sure they would have named the 16KW as the 1862 (which it seems they did in later years).

Waiting for others to chime in.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:06 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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the 60KW designation came as a result of RE--it has become slang.

I say, correctly, name the 20s as Waltham 20s and the 16s as KW & SET FROM THE BACK--I USED THIS LONG BEFORE RE came out with his idea of grade.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:48 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Bit of a mouthful, Jon.

Based on your experience - did the 20s get produced before the 16s? Would it be wrong to say that 20s should be recognized as coming before the 16s, and be designated as the model 1860, with the 16KW being designated as the model 1862?

I just think it would be easier to give them a more accurate model designation.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:53 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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Roy used the 60KW term because of the first American grade 16s KW & S from the back run, 50,301 which dates at "Dec 1860." from one of the hand written records. HOWEVER, it appears that one book I have dates a "funny" looking 1860 which may have been in fact 1863 (this is for the first 16s American grade run of 50,301-400).

I just searched my 2 original hand written records for the American Watch Co. and the first run 20s listed dates from 1862/3. However, included is a non American grade 16s of ONE ONLY serial number 50094, same date.

So in fact the 20s is ok with 62KW as well as 63KW the 16s which confuses the issue; to be clear and consistent it might be better to use 20KW and 16KW AND FORGET THE DATES. Or, leave it alone for another 2 decades?????

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:30 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Well - I'm OK with the nomenclature - just like to conjecture what Waltham would have named these 2 models if they had started their system of naming models after year of introduction, from the very start!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:34 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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Neilywatch wrote:
Well - I'm OK with the nomenclature - just like to conjecture what Waltham would have named these 2 models if they had started their system of naming models after year of introduction, from the very start!


20KW and 16KW should be clear enough for the folks, KW==winding and setting from the back.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:23 pm Reply with quote
KennyHabeeb
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Just getting in on this discussion.

I should probably just go back to the books before asking this, but wasn't the company at least designing if not making the two models simultaneously, one in the older area of the company, and one in the new wing of the company set up after the Nashua crew came back into the fold? What were those boys working on after they came back to Waltham? Just the 20KW? or both models?

K.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:25 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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They were working on all America grades.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:01 pm Reply with quote
KennyHabeeb
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Did they only work on the future high-grade '72s? Who exactly was making the 20 and 16 KWs?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:03 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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The AMERICAN GRADES (high grades) were finished in the N dept, inc 20s,18s, 16s, 12s, OOs, etc.

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SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:44 pm Reply with quote
KennyHabeeb
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I just realized that I don't really know what is meant by "finished." What all does that entai beyond surface quality? Fit? Any difference in parts between the AG and AppTr?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:04 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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Finest of the finest

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American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:09 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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KennyHabeeb wrote:
I just realized that I don't really know what is meant by "finished." What all does that entai beyond surface quality? Fit? Any difference in parts between the AG and AppTr?


Oh Yes - Big Difference!

Even the internal parts of the American Grade movts were beautifully finished. I remember reading somewhere these were so labor intensive they barely made money on them. They made their money on the Grade 1's, Bond St's, Etc.

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Waltham Model 1860 versus 1862
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