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From Tom Bartels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:48 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 26868
Location: Boston, Ma




"I have not responded to this discussion because I have just recently received the proposed budget. The question of how much of a dues increase is required to run our operation will be heavily debated. One of the primary problems we have to deal with in this process is the perception of what kind of organization we really are. One side considers the NAWCC a purely charitable organization whose members join because they recognize the value of the educational opportunities we provide and are happy to contribute to it.
The other side believes we are primarily a membership organization that exists because of our chapters, national and regional meetings that provide beneficial venues for their collecting interests. This concept infers that dues must provide enough value to justify their membership.
Both ideologies are, in my opinion, wrong. The so called "merger" of the museum and library with the NAWCC was done to preserve the non profit 501-C3 status for the organization, which was in jeopardy because much of what we funded were considered by the IRS as non charitable activities.
Changing the status of our organization on a piece of paper did not and will not change the perception of what type of Association we are. As Tom M. alluded, either we have to convince members that our educational and charitable endeavors are valuable and worthwhile assets, or find outside sources of income to fund these activities, which has taken up much of the board's time in the last few years.
The alternative, of course, is to reduce the educational services that we provide. Cutting costs without reducing services is a horse that has long been beaten to death and any further reductions in funding will produce that result.
Obviously all membership organizations of every type have dues increases. I agree with Robert that dues should be tied to certain indexes with periodic increases every 2 or 3 years. We have traditionally waited too long to increase dues, resulting in what appears to be a huge jump all at once when much of it had actually been deferred.
I do not agree with a $17 increase. I think a more reasonable level such as $7 or $8 would be justified and future budgets should factor in a moderate increase every 2 years. This seems to be consistent with much of the discussion here, and I think the general membership will find it more acceptable, especially if we explain why it is needed.
This would require we dip into more of the reserves, which in the long term would kill our golden goose we are already tapping. We need to develop more viable outside sources of income and increase donations and gifts, but that has been and will continue to be a difficult process. Perhaps if we listed the services and benefits that would be cut if there were no dues increases, the members would be more amenable. I guess a lot would depend on who's ox gets gored.
Just my thoughts."
Tom Bartels

Tom emailed me the following.........

"I have just posted my position on a dues increase on the members MB under the topic "October board meeting and Dues increase". Will be happy to answer any questions."
Tom

Thanks to Tom for posting the above and for his Chapter 149 participation.

Jon
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Re: From Tom Bartels
PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:54 pm Reply with quote
gemeyr4
Chapter Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 1819
Location: Morgan Hill CA




Jon wrote:
Tom's quote; One side considers the NAWCC a purely charitable organization whose members join because they recognize the value of the educational opportunities we provide and are happy to contribute to it.


I was going to ask what the hell are these folks smoking but then I realized these folks are just out there naturally. No excuse for their stupidity.

I suggest they take a poll just to see how many would contribute just because they are "happy to contribute"....

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:22 pm Reply with quote
wayne crawforth
Chapter Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1138
Location: manhattan,ks




i think what tom needs to understand, is that for those educational opportunities to be of value, they have to be where all members can use them. the school in Columbia doesn't do me any good in Kansas.
the fieldsuitcase workshops in texas, Georgia,or California don't do me any good in Kansas. I have a hard time placing a large value in educational
opportunities I don't have !

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:22 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
Chapter Member
Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 5590




They have answered the question to their own existential dilemma -

They have stated that they are having increasing difficulty collecting money from outside sources - ergo - their primary source of income IS and will CONTINUE to be, the membership.

SO, if they continue to see the NAWCC as an organization that exists as source of learning and education, where the membership is simply there because they signed on to learn and to contribute, both in terms of dollars and manpower, rather than the other way around - then the NAWCC will definitely continue to dwindle, both in members and in options.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:03 am Reply with quote
StephanG
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Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 5000
Location: Melbourne Australia




You need to move away from this "one size fits all" and break the membership down into smaller bits to truly find out what people are "happy" to pay for.

Right now you are just guessing.

I suspect some are paying very little for all they get while others pay a lot for not very much.

Have a basic fee and keep it low. The rest should be user pay.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:17 am Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 26868
Location: Boston, Ma




In my opinion the n/a should seek tenants for some income--certainly all that space they occupy at "Camelot" could/should be reduced!

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:40 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 5590




I remember when they invited the Music Box Society to rent that space - but the membership nixed that idea as they were NOT horological related.

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Neil - Crazy for Walthams!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2015 8:11 pm Reply with quote
S Mercer
Chapter Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2002
Posts: 1997




Tom

When I mentioned being fiscally responsible on the NAWCC message board and asked how BoD members their ideas and opinions on how they are going to cut costs and expenses to be fiscally responsible, I was not talking the operating costs and expenses of the organization. I do understand that making cuts to staff, salaries, etc. are not the way to save the organization. I also understand the way the organization is setup all the day-to-day expenses and operations basically falls under the ED, Steven Humphrey.

But the BoD members can be fiscally responsible in other ways. One example is travel expenses. Why does the organization send a BoD member from the east coast to a regional that is in the middle of the continent or the west coast? It would save money by sending a BoD member who lives close to the regional where he could drive instead of using airfare. I understand that some of the BoD members actual donate the travel expenses back to the NAWCC but not all do.

I donít know all the duties of BoD members but I am sure that other then travel there could be other areas of savings if the BoD wanted to be fiscally responsible.

Along with what Jon stated above. The NAWCC has a building that is basically sitting empty or being under utilized. Renting out space would bring in some revenue. The NAWCC is already paying for the utilities and upkeep of the building anyway.

Although I do not use that many resources of the organization I personally do not mind a dues increase. I know costs go up. The thing that bothers me is most of the BoD expects the regular members just to hand over their money. You and other BoD members might think this is a charitable organization but I would hazard a guess that most of the regular membership would consider this a membership organization with an opportunity to support a museum and library.

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Waltham Model 83 Watches
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:24 am Reply with quote
StephanG
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Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 5000
Location: Melbourne Australia




I find it interesting that in this time of financial trouble there are still people getting subsidized for travel.

If you were in a serious charitable operation like Rotary and volunteered to go to Africa to build a well for some natives I am pretty sure you would have to pay your own travel expenses.

I have a friend who did this and he only got food and board and not as cash.
He got a bed in a native hut and the same food they were eating.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:16 am Reply with quote
PWhandman
Chapter Member
Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 1795
Location: Niagara Falls,NY




Membership organization. I'm with Wayne about the education thing;what good is it to me? Lower dues certainly-perhaps like Steve said and give a choice of "smaller bits". Go for quantity first and get that membership up!
$30 dues for message board privileges alone might be a good start.

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MartyB
"New Hands For Old"
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:33 am Reply with quote
darrah
Chapter Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 4202
Location: Houston, TX




Why should anyone pay money to join the NAWCC when most have what they want is terms of quick answers to solve watch problems via the web site. Yes, it is great to receive the Bulletin, at least it is for me, but most information that non-members want is basic information on a watch history, how to repair something and what is the value. These three items should be restricted to members only or pay up with another fee. Crap, even the webinars are open for all to attend or view.

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Darrah Artzner
Ch 15, 124, 139, 149, 168
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:49 pm Reply with quote
StephanG
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Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 5000
Location: Melbourne Australia




You have it in one Darra.

Long have I preached for a internet only membership.

It is almost too late now because all those things you mentioned can now be found on FaceBook and YouTube FOR FREE.

As for the notion that members are happy to support a charity in lew of member benefits none can say that because they simply don't know.

At the moment YOU HAVE NO CHOICE.

You are either in or out.

Perhaps if we consider the 20,000 + membership loss over the last few years it might be there is an answer there.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:00 pm Reply with quote
Jon
Chapter President
Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 26868
Location: Boston, Ma




Books, the internet, websites, for sale sites, club websites, auctions galore, collectors chatter, easy communications--there is little reason to join the n/a as it just ISN'T EXCLUSIVE ANYMORE for watch folks (and others).

The n/a basically began its life primarily as a clock club--is it fading back to its roots?

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Jon "the truth" Hanson
Founder and President of Chapter 149--the leading horological collectors' club!
American Horologe Co -- America's Most Respected Name
SUPPORT ETHICAL PRACTICES IN HOROLOGY--Keep watches original--DO NOT SWITCH, PART OUT OR "CREATE" PW abortions!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:05 pm Reply with quote
geno
Chapter Member
Joined: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 1735




Basically, I attend about 3 regionals and the National a year, plus about 4 chapter meetings, that is the only reason I will stay no matter what they charge. Geno
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:37 pm Reply with quote
StephanG
Friend of 149
Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 5000
Location: Melbourne Australia




I think Geno just demonstrated a big part of the problem - No offense intended as I see where you are coming from.

For a long time many people joined the NAWCC just to gain access to marts and the NAWCC has misconstrued this as a vote of confidence in what they were doing.

In reality people just put up with what they were doing to gain mart access. If you wanted to buy clocks / watches what other choice was there ???

Roll on 20 years and now people have a wide range of options and you can be a collector without going to marts at all.

Now people are looking for other reasons to be a member and now all the stupid things that go on do matter and people are willing to leave if it gets too much.

Chapter membership is also in decline and so less new members from that source.

I think the NAWCC has forgotten how to attract new members in their own right, rather than off the back of something else, because it has been so long since they had to do it.
Perhaps they don't know how.

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From Tom Bartels
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