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WORLDWIDE Chapter 149 Message Board Forum Index » Pocket Watch Discussions » Who made this for Bailey Banks Biddle? Goto page 1, 2  Next
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Who made this for Bailey Banks Biddle?
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 6:17 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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The movement is about 12 size.

My first thought was Gruen.

Winding wheels have regular teeth, not wolf teeth.

Any other ideas?

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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 1:47 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
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I'm going for Touchon. Touchon was not really a maker but an importer and around this time they seem to have been the importer for Louis Elysée Piguet of Le Brassus, Switzerland. Louis Elysée Piguet also made ebauches for Audmars Piguet and Touchon was the US agent for these until about the mid-teens too. There are many jeweler labeled movements like this which were imported by Touchon.

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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 7:19 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Thanks John!

I remember owning a Touchon, but it was marked "Touchon" on the movt and dial and did not look anything like above.

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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 7:57 am Reply with quote
interstatetime
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Neilywatch wrote:
Thanks John!

I remember owning a Touchon, but it was marked "Touchon" on the movt and dial and did not look anything like above.


Again, I don't think Touchon, even though they sort of acted like a manufacturer, ever really "made" watches. I think they were set up in NYC as the agent or importer for AP and some other manufacturers who didn't yet have the where-with-all to have a presence in this market. There are a lot of different looking watches that have Touchon finger prints on them but which are not labeled with their name. A lot were made for very high end jewelers. Tiffany comes to mind as one of their biggest customers.

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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 8:51 am Reply with quote
Bryan
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I'm betting Agassiz - pull the dial and see if the fish is on the PP

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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 8:35 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
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Bryan wrote:
I'm betting Agassiz - pull the dial and see if the fish is on the PP


Interestingly, many of the Audemars Piguet watches that Touchon imported were marked AP under the dial. Whoever made it, I still believe it came to BB&B through Touchon.

You will find Agassiz, Touchon, AP, Meylan, Gubelin etc using this basic movement.

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winner, winner, chicken dinner!!
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 9:01 pm Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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Well, it looks like Bryan gets the Cigar!

Its Agassiz! (at 3 oclock on the movt).

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Re: winner, winner, chicken dinner!!
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 1:27 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
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Neilywatch wrote:
Well, it looks like Bryan gets the Cigar!

Its Agassiz! (at 3 oclock on the movt).


Again, imported through Touchon...their agent in the US and with whom they merged at some point.

I guess it doesn't really much matter....but again, you will find a lot of peoples names under the dial of the same style movement/ebauch.

Great catch on the Agassiz Bryan.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:29 pm Reply with quote
Bryan
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JC - it is too crude for Touchon. Touchon level of finish is much better.

I've also never seen a Touchon that didn't have wolf's teeth

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:47 pm Reply with quote
Jon
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JOHN COTE: Please remove that awful .com ad within your MB id.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:14 am Reply with quote
interstatetime
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Jon wrote:
JOHN COTE: Please remove that awful .com ad within your MB id.


I would love to remove it but I can't access my profile on this site anymore. I am logged in but Profile is not available to me. I have no idea how that weird thing got there.

If you or someone can get me access to my profile, I would gladly remove whatever is causing this. It probably has something to a link I used to have to interstatetime dot com...which I don't own anymore and which someone is trying to sell for an outrageous amount.


Last edited by interstatetime on Sun May 09, 2021 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:18 am Reply with quote
interstatetime
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Bryan wrote:
JC - it is too crude for Touchon. Touchon level of finish is much better.

I've also never seen a Touchon that didn't have wolf's teeth


Just look even at Tiffany Touchons. Many of them and especially the time only versions were sort of crude and certainly did not have wolf's teeth. Touchon was a huge importer of watches to the US. They were the agents for a lot of different makers from the sublime, like AP to the not so sublime. There are a lot of Touchon imports out there which are much more crude than the subject watch.

I suppose we might argue whether calling these watches Touchon is correct or not but when I show them to the experts at shows that is what they call them. If you don't want to call them Touchon, I can understand and would actually agree...but they were sold in the USA by Touchon none the less. The fact is that attributing watches to makers at the time of the "making" of the subject watch is tenuous at best anyway. Are the complicated Audemars Piguet watches from 1905-1915 really Audemars Piguet made watches? The movements were not really made by AP...only finished by them.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 8:45 am Reply with quote
Neilywatch
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John -

In the world of High horology, Attribution is very important. When there is a known chain of "who touched it", it improves that watch's history, and therefore its collectibility. We see this all the time in the auction catalogues and also any Book that researches and documents watch brands.

IF Touchon was just an importer, and did not do any work to the watch, such as finishing, or casing, than said watch should not be indentified as a "Touchon". In my watch's case it would be an Agassiz, commissioned by Bailey Banks Biddle as their Private label. Touchon would not be mentioned except in a more exhaustive discussion of the brands history.

If Audemers finished the movement ebauche, say by Piguet, then It would be indentified as a Piguet that was finished by Audemars.

Lumping all these esteemed makers and finishers as a "Touchon" does not do these watches justice, and perpetuates mistakes that we all know is chronic in our hobby.

I am going to list this movement on eBay, and I going to describe it as an Agassiz, imported by Touchon and retailed by BBB. Always give credit to the actual "maker" of the watch.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 10:21 am Reply with quote
interstatetime
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Neil,

I totally agree that attribution is important and I agree with your characterization of your watch for an eBay description. I do not agree that attribution is always easy or even possible though.

For instance, this watch from my collection says Touchon on the dial. So it's a Touchon...right? Well, let's look at your rules. This watch has a movement made by Elise Piquet (totally independent from either Touchon or AP) for Audemars Piguet. It is cased in an AP case. It has an AP serial number on both the case and movement and AP confirms that it is in their serial number list with their model name corresponding to the exact watch. Touchon did nothing but order this watch with their name on the dial...and also with a California jeweler's name on the barrel bridge.

Most folk would attribute this watch to Touchon. What do you say? They did nothing to contribute to its making except order it and get it into the USA.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 2:30 pm Reply with quote
interstatetime
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Who ever fixed my profile...THX. How come I can't get to my profile anymore?

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Who made this for Bailey Banks Biddle?
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